Co je NAR? Jak poznám, že moje církev je NAR: S Holly Pivec a Douglasem Geivettem

How do I know if my Church is NAR: With Holly Pivec & Douglas Geivett

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o3Cf_7q2014

Neopravený přepis podle titulků:

hey everyone thank you so much for
tuning into this episode of room knit
radio I've got
Doug and Holly Pivec on the other line
we're going to be discussing the new
apostolic reformation I always like I say
Doug and Holly Pivec they're not
it's not a thing I apologize for doing that again uh
but hey this is going to be a really
exciting show talking about the new
apostolic reformation something that
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the new year we might actually
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like the video Michael how are you sir
I am doing well very excited about this
episode read Doug and Holly's book
it was fantastic in my opinion uh we'll
get to that
in just a moment but I do want to let
you guys know about just some of the shows we've had recently what we have coming up last week I think you if you haven't
seen it yet you'll
love our episode with Elisa Childers
talking about progressive Christianity that one's getting a ton of traction
Josh and I did an episode
the next day talking about complementarianism what does male
headship mean and so we talked through that
uh and tomorrow we have coming up an episode with uh with a guy named tim chaffee and we're talking about the hebrew
roots movement I had no idea how many people are involved in the hebrew roots movement but actually quite a bit and there's some things to be concerned about so make sure you listen to that tomorrow
at 4 p.m
live right here on remnant radio so
without further ado why don't we jump
into the episode
yeah okay uh and then I'll just kind of let let you guys know Holly and Doug uh
it sounds like one of your computers may
have the speaker on uh if you have headphones that'll keep our audio from looping a little bit I can hear I can hear Michael talking
uh anyway uh uh Holly I'll go ahead and leave with you and have you introduce
yourself and your ministry and we'll try to dive in
sure thanks so much first of all for
having us on we're thrilled
to be on your show and really I've been
looking forward to this my name is Holly Pivec and I've co-authored two books with Doug Geivett
uh a New Apostolic Reformation a biblical response to a worldwide movement and God's super-apostles encountering the worldwide
uh prophets and apostles movement and I'm the former managing editor
at biola university of biola magazine
for about a decade there and also the university editor there that's actually
when I first discovered this movement
I started researching it during the time
I was working there
and since then I've written these books
I have a blog
hollypivot.com where I've been blogging
for many many years about this movement
and keeping up with it and researching
it and just as I said uh we're excited to talk about this topic tonight
we're excited to have you awesome Doug
can I introduce yourself as well
yeah sure let me thank you first of all
for inviting us to join you
uh Josh and Michael I've been teaching
at talbot school of theology at biola
university which is in Los Angeles county California for about 27 - 28 years
I teach in the m.a philosophy program
where we have students who train
to go on and do PHD research I'd say that
probably the majority of our students
have an interest in doing further
graduate research at the PHD level and we've placed
over 200 of our students in
PHD programs around the country and internationally so that's been a big part of my work Holly and I as she mentioned are co-authors of two past books that we'll be talking about to uh previously published books but we've also continued our research together and we
have other things coming along
down the pike eventually I write
quite a bit in the area of Christian apologetics in Christian thought and theology uh Christian philosophy but also I work
quite a lot in the guild with my secular
counterparts who don't do philosophy the way that we
do it at talbot
I travel internationally quite a bit I
like to say that I've been to all continents except one and most people
can guess which one that is although
that's still on my bucket list
and I think I've missed out on about three states I haven't made it to three of our united states so far
so I do quite a bit of travel which I
enjoy and most of that is for
uh speaking lecturing um and uh I do
teach some courses overseas so how does that sound for an adoption
that's incredible I would like to know which states you haven't been to those which are which are the states which states are that unimportant that
47 is good enough
you're probably not surprised you know
one may be surprising I've never been to the dakotas okay either North or South
Dakota and I've never been to hawaii and that's
despite the fact
just across the the way from there
in california yeah so far hawaiians need
the gospel too
Doug yeah I guess so
all right so um so we want to when I ask
you guys a few questions I mean I think we're going to begin with what is the NAR but before we even ask you
that I want to talk to you Josh and make sure
I want to just kind of invite us all make sure we're
all on the same page how exactly should
we be posturing ourselves as remnant
radio Josh how are we posturing ourselves
going into this discussion sure so um
you know we
we personally here believe in the gifts of the spirit present right um but I do
believe there are
lots of people in the Pentecostal
charismatic movement who believe in the gifts of the spirit  and there there are specific groups of individuals
who have this this teaching that would be classified as New Apostolic Reformation
and we don't want to talk about this in a way to to shame to abuse
to to ridicule to mock what we want to do is we want to say hey
there are these groups of teachings
amongst those of us who are Pentecostal
charismatic and um they are troublesome they're
worrisome they're something that we want
to be careful of and raise awareness of there's a lot of people who are going
along with these people who've been
raised in this you just don't know
they're oblivious to it
so this is kind of just an awareness to discuss and talk about with people that we we respect we read
this book that Doug and Holly put together on the New Apostolic Reformation
and frankly it answered a whole lot of questions it
put a whole lot of pieces together for
me things I've been seeing for a very long time
uh and was able to put words to it so I
just kind of sharing that experience
with our audience as a way to again raise awareness not to shame not to bash but just to say hey there are some
concerning things and we need to be
aware of that
yeah and and Doug and Holly I felt like
you guys did a a good job in the book it
at having that posture the a posture of of love
and that just right at the beginning of the book I wrote this quote down you
said we assume that leading NAR figures are believers
and genuine disciples of Jesus and their intentions to do the will of God in their lives and in this world
and so I wanted to just start the episode out this way so nobody thinks
we're out trying to you know cast stones or anything like that we just we just want to walk in
truth and love and so I thought y'all did a good job of that in the book and um
and Holly why don't we just begin with
you and and I'd just like to if you have any comments or anything we
just said feel free to make comments
there but I was just going to ask you
what is the NAR what is the New Apostolic Reformation
yeah so it's a fast-growing global
movement of churches that believe that they must be governed by
present-day apostles and prophets and the reason they must be governed
by apostles and prophets is because they
believe these are the two
formal offices of church government that
have been authorized to bring
new revelation or new truths to the church and so it's kind of they use an analogy a lot of a hand with five fingers
and they would say for centuries now
we've only had three fingers uh we've
you know we've had um Evangelist pastors and teachers
but we've been missing the apostles and prophets and these are the only two offices that have actually been
authorized by God to bring new
revelation to the church and so because of that
the church has kind of been languishing
it hasn't been able to complete the great commission which is has really been redefined in
this movement as uh commissioned to take dominion or
social political control of the nations of the earth and um so
the apostles and prophets would say that
they're giving new revelations that are equipping all Christians to become miracle workers and to work even greater miracles and Jesus worked
and through these miracles uh that they're working. They can actually set up God's physical
kingdom on earth but the church can't do
this it can't
complete this commission until the apostles or prophets
are restored and this is this is really
a global movement as I said
within the united states alone there are
about 3.5 million
people who attend churches that are
directly governed by apostles
and this is according to data from the center for the study of global
Christianity at gordon-conwell
theological seminary they
compile statistics on Christians worldwide
they're really the the place that
compiles these statistics
and they would say so 3.5 million people
attend churches that are that are
directly governed by apostles and that overtly embrace these
in our teachings
in addition though they would say there
are many millions more that attend
churches where these teachings have made
in roads and varying degrees
and these include Pentecostal churches
charismatic churches non-denominational
churches increasingly even denominational
churches and more traditional churches
so this really is a global movement and um it's not an organization so what unites people in this movement is a as a the core belief that apostles and prophets must govern the church and do so so that they
can bring new revelation that's critical
to the church fulfilling its mission in the world and  so and it's a restoration of this
movement it's the idea that teachings important teachings have been
lost for centuries, and these apostles and prophets need
to come back and restore these teachings um and one of those teachings is the teaching that apostles and prophets are to cover in the church
sure and and we'll we'll get into some of that I think that there will be an important part of this discussion where we talk about different kinds of apostles and prophets because the way that you define apostle and prophet has a lot to do
with whether you're NAR or if you're Anglican,
right? So those are those are going to be kind of different conversations that
we're going to have but before we even get into that I'd like to ask Doug
Doug do you uh are you guys using like
your own categories to think up
NAR where did this come from and where
are you getting these categories of teachings to identify
people who are NAR
yeah well the categories come from reading their work and listening to what they say we haven't created the categories
ourselves and we do in our books make a distinction between the way that NAR folk use the terms apostles and prophets and how the bible uses those terms
and we argue that there's a real
difference between the two
see Peter Wagner first used the language
or the label
New Apostolic Reformation and some
within the movement
do use this label for themselves still
che on for example considers himself an apostle and is very explicit about that
and uh referring to see Peter Wagner
he'll say that I'm part of the New Apostolic
reformation or something to that effect
others who are part of the movement may not identify themselves with the New Apostolic reformation but that doesn't mean that they're not part of it because they're part of a movement they believe the same things they have the same practices and even if they say but I've never even heard of the New Apostolic Reformation
it wouldn't matter because you don't
have to know of it by that label you
don't have to own the label or think of yourself as a part of an organization to be part of the movement
and so the categories come from the way
they use the terms apostle and prophet
in their own publications and in their speaking and uh their teachings
yeah yeah well let's let's follow up on that what is the difference between their definition of apostle and prophet
and what you guys would understand is the biblical definition of apostle
and prophet so one thing I want to be really clear
about is is they are not talking about what many people refer to as lower case
a apostles in in the NAR that's not what they're talking about so
many people will say I believe that
there are lowercase a apostles today
referring to apostles being like missioNARies or
church planters that that's not and we can talk about that I want to show
you know some different quotations and things later if we have time to show
that that's not what we're talking about and we're also not talking about uh profits uh in the way many
pentecostals and charismatics will talk
about uh people who have a present day gift of prophecy that's talked about like in first
corinthians 12 we're not critiquing or disputing that at all um
what we're talking about is prophets and apostles who claim to have formal governing offices and that like pastors or elders all
even but even higher offices actually pastors and elders must submit to them  and they must govern so that the new
revelations can be implemented in the churches and organizations they
oversee and so there's a big difference between what people refer to sometimes as like little
casey apostle an uppercase a apostle and and what we're trying to show today is they're not talking about little case
a lowercase a apostles so there are you would say that there are those people
in the conservative Evangelical church  you know I'm thinking of guys like
sam storms d.a carson um
you know these guys would talk about apostles of the lamb like apostles of Jesus Christ and apostles of the church
people who were sent out from the church
to plant those kinds of things now you
use the phrase governing a couple of times and I I'd like to have you unpack that when you say
governing I do think of Anglicans and you mentioned them in your book as well to say they have a form of apostleship that's
very different now
the apostleship that I see in the Anglican church is one of governance
so how how do you make a distinction between the New Apostolic Reformation
and their and their function of governance uh versus like so like in the assemblies of God
uh they would deny apostles and prophets
but like in in classical Pentecostal
denominations that might hold a view of apostle
they're like hey this is a church
planter but it doesn't have authority
over our movement that's organization
that's structural that's elder led whatever um but how
would you make a distinction between some of those Pentecostal groups that
have apostles as missioNARies and then like
the classical evangelical or the classical - what's the word Anglican position of apostles right I so I might let Doug maybe speak to the Anglican position if he knows
more about that than I do but I would say though um so within the NAR they would say that um you know you have this five-fold ministry and apostles are to be at the top and they're to work in
tandem with prophets and they would say that every church
really should be under the authority of apostles and prophets and often that will happen in an it's
called an apostolic network so for example apostle
oversees an apostolic network of 25 000
churches and something like 65 nations and um so he's
the apostle overseeing all those
churches and all those nations so it's a very wide authority um and um
and so they would say that all churches
need to be under the authority either part of a network
or in order to have an apostle and also working together with a prophet
in their church leadership Doug would you be able to unpack the Anglican question for me yeah well let me just speak to that uh
briefly I'm not an expert on the Anglican communion or the church of england but uh
there is a difference a real difference
uh for example in the Anglican church
they talk about apostolic succession and so they believe that they could trace
the leadership of the communion the Anglican communion back to the apostolic church in
somewhat the same way that the roman catholics might back to the pope
but they don't believe that there's been
a real interruption
in the progression from the first
century up until the present time that would be one real difference uh between the apostles of the NAR and apostolic succession within the Anglican communion because the in the NAR these are new apostles
and prophets in the way that that Holly described and uh
they're new in the sense that the church
has been missing
these two offices for all these many
generations and now
they're being restored by the holy
spirit to serve
certain purposes and that would bring us
to the second difference or at least one
other difference and that would be
the role that apostles and prophets are
supposed to play
in a NAR kind of setting in contrast to a an Anglican sort of setting
so for the Anglican church
the source of authority of uh Christian authority knowledge of Christian truth is uh
primarily scripture as interpreted by the 39 articles or
understood in connection with the 39
articles somewhat like the the westminster
confession of faith for the Presbyterians and uh and then church tradition the tradition of the church
uh with bishops and the episcopal uh
tradition of the church that's something that you find missing
in the New Apostolic uh reformation
the Anglican church would not invest
the apostolic uh the figures in the in the succession with the same kind of authority the same kind of power as uh
you see associated with uh dNAR
now another difference would be uh
the various roles that these individuals
play and so within the apostolic succession
in the in the Anglican communion
you won't see the emphasis on the power
to perform miracles in the same way that
you have in
in the NAR so that would be another a third difference that has to do with
say practices that occur within those
two traditions okay sure okay I'd like to just
I want to avoid building any kind of straw man so that we can just like tear
down the NAR I I want to try to present this in the most
sympathetic case and and I'd like for you guys to just
respond to this so I'm gonna imagine I'm
in the NAR I'm not but we'll just
imagine it okay
we'll see and I want to to make an argument that apostles and prophets should have governance in the church even over elders in the church and um
and so I'm gonna say hey when you look
at the church in the book of acts there
were apostles who were appointing elders and speaking into the life of churches and this group of apostles seemed to extend even beyond the original 12 whose names are
on the foundation stones of the new jerusalem of course you have you have Paul and then you have Barnabas and Barnabas was one of the ones appointing apostles and then uh and then when you
go into the book of Ephesians and Ephesians 2:20, and you have the apostles and prophets having a prominent foundational role
in the building of the temple metaphor for the church and then um and then you kind of go into
Ephesians I want to say it's about 3-5 or so where apostles and prophets are the ones that received this revelation the gent
about gentile inclusion into the church so we
need apostles and prophets to bring in the revelation that the church needs to be able to to move into new frontiers - just like pretty nerdy church, and then you get to Ephesians 4 11 and the fivefold ministry and you've got apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers and and they're the ones training the saints
it seems as though they have some kind of leadership role everyone would agree
apostles were leaders and that pastors and teachers were leaders
we might by way of inference say that evangelists uh and prophets were leaders in that
role as well then you get to first corinthians
chapter 12 and Paul begins to make a list question first you have a policy to preach someone pull the mic from the preacher what's he doing spiritual guess is my thing man I know how to talk
through it so uh you've got first apostles then I think the second one is
prophets and so on so I I know that these are the arguments
that somebody in the NAR is going to bring up and say this is why we need
apostles and prophets today with governmental authority who have special revelatory insight so um I don't know which of you
wants to answer that I know there's a lot you could jump in on Doug why don't we start with you
good so the last little bit that you
said is very important
governmental authority all right
despite all of the uh the things that
you mentioned and the leadership role that apostles
played with different forms of apostleship in the new testament as you
can see in the book of acts
in some of the epistles like Ephesians
and so forth you don't find anything like
governmental authority you might see a lot of the same things that you described
certainly leadership church planting on
the part of apostles. Apostle is a term that just means one
who is sent and the churches did send
they would lay hands on individuals like
Paul and Barnabas for example and and uh
send them with their blessing on you
know missioNARy journeys and so forth
where they would establish churches they would do evangelism and establish churches and so
they would represent the church with the blessing of these leaders we're talking about something very different and the people
within the NAR actually think of themselves in very
different terms than that and it isn't just that they're providing
leadership and guidance and training and education
in biblical truth but or exercising a kind of authority that you don't see attributed to other
apostles in the new testament other
perhaps than uh the apostles of Jesus Christ so that would be  a real difference and and the language that you use there towards the end Michael is actually a tip off that there is that real difference that's good you might jump in and yeah
Holly what is there any part of that that you
want to jump in on well just the key verses that are
generally used to defend governing apostles today Ephesians 4:11
through 13 uh first corinthians 12 28 I believe it is
those two verses say nothing about governing formal offices of church government that uh are to perpetuate through all
generations so it's really making those
verses do a lot more than they actually do to to bring
formal governing to see formal governing offices in those
and then the Ephesians 2:20 passage that's often cited is referring back to the foundation of the church it's referring backwards so those are
those are the three main passages that
are generally used to support uh the teaching that apostles and prophets are to govern the church today
and I would say those three passages do not do that in
addition the clear clearly is that the offices of deacon and elder are established in the new
testament instructions are given for how to um
the qualifications for these leaders and what their office looks like but there's
never any instructions in the new testament given for
appointing new apostles um so so it's really making
an entire movement out of saying that
apostles and prophets must govern the church it's just building an entire
uh movement over a gaping hole uh
they're just there aren't aren't these passages in scripture to support those teachings well I mean I would I've got another
direction I would take the conversation
in but I almost want to jump in on that
but like with with that one I could say that like
the early church fathers talked about apostles talked about bishops um and and even uh spoke about the transitions of those roles I want to say um uh discipled by peter
uh ignatius um speaks of these kind of governing roles. One of the early church fathers
talked about - hey these guys are calling themselves
apostles are doing this but they're not
they're not doing miracles so it's like
there are there there are some early
church stuff so I wouldn't I wouldn't
say that there's no argument um there's certainly none
from scripture I'll give you that
but there is I would say that there is
potentially a pattern.
Again siding with you guys as far as how
this fleshes out and how this should
flesh out in a local church
I would still side with you guys um just
I don't wanna don't wanna make an unnecessary uh strongman which I'll let
you speak so I'll let you correct me if
you think I'm
I'm wrong there um but but uh I do I
have two questions that I think are really important one.
Do you believe that all Pentecostal charismatics are NAR
and I'll ask that to Doug - are all pentecostals and charismatics NAR and then to Holly.
I'll ask um you know do you believe that all
(???) new apples college reformation churches
are heretics have they apostasized
entirely or are they Christians that have error  and how do we how do we categorize
these two things. So first question are all pentecostals
charismatics NAR and then second question:
are all of the NAR completely apostate or are they just Christians with error? Starting with Doug.
Yeah well thank you for that question
Josh, that is a very good question and I
think it would be of real interest to a lot of people who
watch Remnant radio we would say emphatically know that
if there is a real difference between a church that endorses the New Apostolic Reformation and has leaders within that movement on
the one hand and a church that is traditionally
charismatic or classically Pentecostal
so we're making that we're using those
two terms in a certain way I said traditionally
charismatic and classically Pentecostal
the New Apostolic Reformation is actually newer than the emergence of the Pentecostal movement.
And so for example in the Assemblies of God church which is Pentecostal, you don't have any official recognition of the role that the apostle or the prophet is supposed to play as we've attributed to NAR in fact in some of their own white papers their own official documents they have sought to distance themselves
explicitly from the NAR so that people understand that
even though they are Pentecostal they do not endorse
this conception of apostleship and what you might call prophethood
so there is that real difference and in
our books we emphasize that difference we note
that you might well be Pentecostal in the classical sense or charismatic in the traditional sense
and not be part of the New Apostolic Reformation
now of course the question does come up
how would you know whether your own church which may be charismatic
or it may be Pentecostal or it may be something else is or is not
NAR okay,
That's good Holly you want to repeat
your question for Holly
yeah yeah I just asked um you know what level of error do you believe it's error
do you believe it's heresy apostasy
where would you where would you place
the um the NAR group
right and I think it's important to realize that there are degrees of error  and so the most serious degree of error of course would be heresy and that's
that's when somebody denies a doctrine that is essential
to the Christian faith in other words
you cannot be a Christian and and believe that thing or deny that
doctrine so for example if someone were to deny the deity of Christ or deny the doctrine of the Trinity
they would be a heretic by definition and we do not use that term of the new apostle reformation of leaders
or people in this movement  there's a lesser error
but it's still serious error and that would be teachings and practices that are
aberrant and this error can be serious it can it can have serious consequences
if someone arch is to hold to it but it does not fall
to the level of heresy where to believe
it necessarily put you outside of the faith and so we believe that a number of the teachings uh in practices in the NAR would fall into the category of aberrant but would not put them in the category of heresy.
And that's really important because what I hear you saying is the reason you're talking about this um is because it's for God's glory and for our benefit, right? So like if you follow these
doctrines it's going to hurt you and it's going to shame God right it's
it's not his pattern it's not going to bring him the maximum yield of glory but there is a biblical pattern to bring God glory that's seen in
scripture and there is a way for your your soul to be shepherded
rightly um through the teaching and preaching of God's word in the sacraments and so forth and so on  so so what you're saying is like hey
people that we're talking about that are
in ar will acknowledge them as Christian brothers but we're saying: hey be careful because this robs God of glory and hurts the people you're leading
so that's a very good motive when when I
hear people on youtube
I don't hear that same kind of that same
kind of motive when they're talking about NAR
yeah for sure okay I have a question that I think is along
these same lines and um the question is
what are the primary dangers of the NAR
like specifically to the people in the congregations
and I might even ask like what's the number one like if you had
wanted people to to walk away with this is the number one top danger
uh that I would be concerned about and so I'd like to ask you both that
and Doug maybe you first and then Holly
you after him and if he takes your
number one then go with your number two
okay so Doug what's the top danger
okay well yeah I've never thought about just one standing out as the top danger
but it will be related to what it is that is the defining feature of the movement
but let's speak more generally just for
a moment Michael and Josh
about the significance of error in this case even though there's no heresy involved
as far as we are concerned
the kind of error that's involved is
very serious as Holly
as Holly said for one thing we're talking about error in an area that
defines the movement itself so it's not
a subordinate or secondary thing
it is essential to the New Apostolic reformation to be teaching and standing for something that is
unbiblical and is in error in that sense
and needs to be corrected so that's a pretty significant way to be an error and you know
error breeds error and especially if you
don't have authoritative constraints on
what you will do to ensure that error is corrected we think that scripture provides us with
the authoritative constraint and that's why we spend so much time in
our book comparing their teachings with what the bible actually says
about the nature of an apostle or a prophet now one of the great problems
here is that not only does error
breed error sort of theologically
but it can do so at the practical level
within the body of Christ and so the body of Christ always suffers
when the dominant motif within their fellowship is something that is misleading or is unbiblical and so this suffering of the church can take place in lots of different ways people can become
confused about what the bible really teaches
we've heard people say that they've they've come out of the NAR very confused about how the how
to read the bible and study it for themselves they have no confidence on their own
to be able to to do that because they haven't been taught um in in a rich and real responsible way
to do that and just to interrupt you for a moment is that is that typical of a NAR church that it's maybe not expositional that it or maybe
it cherry-picks verses for proof texting and or maybe they just their whole sermon is
a prophecy and they just refer to the bible I mean like what is the nature of t why are people
not understanding the bible in our churches uh can I if I could
see one thing in response to that one of their key teachings is prophetic illumination that the apostles and prophets receive prophetic illumination
and that's that they receive new insights into understanding a verse or a passage of scripture that no one in the history of the church has actually received or at least that it's
an understanding that has been lost
since like the early centuries and and that they're restoring and so because of that they'll often come to a passage of scripture and tell people what it means
and a normal person wouldn't look at that passage of scripture
a normal a person just normally reading
their bible wouldn't look at the passage of scripture and read it that way in
context but it takes the apostle or prophet to tell them what it means even though
it really doesn't seem like it actually
has anything to do with that I could
give examples but um please do please do actually okay I
know we'll get back to we'll get back to the dangers question but I think this is
important yeah I can help if you're looking for
resources Holly because growing up in the movement we've
actually done episodes here on episodes
we call neo-gnosticism um and in that video where we talk about spiritualizing scripture texts that's a very common thing it actually
happened with irenaeus when he was reading passages about the woman with
the issue of blood and and uh the young girl the jairus
daughter who died at the age of 12 and he says look there's she had the issue for 12
years this woman died for 12. these are
these 12 these are prophetic insights 12 is government that means that that there's these these kind of governmental uh figures that God is
wanting to restore and to reinstitute
I've heard people in with an NAR kind of thing that irenaeus was awesome no I said iron
ass I'm so sorry
iron ass wrote against valentinus okay
this was the one that was talking about these two uh I
was like you you just broke my heart no
no I apologize yeah so I iron ass was writing against
gnosticism against valentine's day
using these kinds of spiritual texts and I've I've heard guys
uh in the movements that I was raised
and I'm saying like this older woman is the older church the older people in
our church you have the old system of revival who can't birth anything new
and then the young people who are coming
into maturity who haven't been able to to experience revival and this is God
saying to us today that he's wanting to bring a life to the old revival system and the new revival
system to waken up the whole church
now is it is it a theological truth that
God wants us alive
yes um but but can we use that text to say this is what this means that in essence it's teaching people how
to read the bible the wrong way
yes yeah you're teaching them to look
for spiritual meaning okay
yeah Holly why don't you give one
example of it well I had one example
this this is going to get into
uh naming names a little bit uh but this is the example I had
so I'll read a verse to you first and just see what you would think
this means right psalm 27 4 one thing I
ask from the lord this only do I seek that I
may dwell in the house of the lord all
the days of my life
to gaze on the beauty of the lord and to seek him in his temple
okay that's the verse
well that verse uh is a verse that  actually Mike Bickle claims that the prophet Bob Jones gave him prophetic
illumination into and it was the basis for establishing
believing that he was called to establish 24/7 prayer rooms
throughout throughout the world and and it was that
verse and we actually had a conversation Doug and I with Mike Bickle where we're in that conversation he conceded
that you know someone wouldn't normally read that verse and and come to that understanding
but he saw in that um that that that 24/7 prayer rooms needed to be established
throughout the world and that was important to bringing the return of Christ and that that's a different subject but that's one example
so and I almost want to give pushback on that too because so
my question would be does bickle believe that that's what that verse says and does bickle believe
that's like hey this verse is about 24-hour prayer in worship  that that when the author wrote it
when the holy spirit inspired the author
to write it that um that that's what that was the authorial intent or does he believe that the holy spirit
spoke to him directly as he was reading that verse
there's an application for him
personally I would say it's not even an application what I'm thinking of is
I want to say it's ezekiel who's like
laying on his side and he sees something
and he's like there's a pot that's
tipped over and there's water coming out of it and God says hey
just as this water tips out of this pot
so will the north invade the whatever
so like he's using a natural means to communicate a supernatural truth is it possible that he's reading a text that means one thing and God in the midst of that speaks something else
I would and the reason I'm bringing this
up is to say  I've held my son in my in my
and my lap and he's jumping up and down
and I get really excited
about him you know jumping up and down
doing something that that I've been able
to do my entire life
right um but uh but his first moments of standing I was such great joy and felt like the lord
spoke to me in that moment
like hey those are meaningless silly
things and I have joy in you when you do
meaningless you know uh uh seemingly
meaningless things as well
so here's a a natural object that I feel
like God is speaking to me
in a supernatural way I would never get
up and preach that
I would never share that experience because I think prophecy is is
subordinate and it's not equal to scripture and it was a personal application for my
life is it possible that he's looking at that as a personal application and not a revealed
truth for all people everywhere because I would I would feel like that
would be a strong difference is that
go ahead Holly oh what I was gonna say is is
uh for someone who studied ihop and through its history and followed it
through its history I would say that
people have noted that there have been real revisions and I helped prophetic history
over the years and so I would say from what I
understand is initially he would have seen it more in the prophetic illumination since and and that's how he taught it  I think he has maybe softened his language and and now
says something like it inspired him um
but but I do believe that that initially
in his teachings and practices and the way it was presented was more in a prophetic illumination sense through the prophet Bob Jones sure that's fair
that's right well
well regardless I think this would be a huge concern to me it would be
if somebody thinks that anyone thinks we
can get special revelation out of God's word that no one has had historically that we're understanding is somehow God's intent through that scripture was to establish this new truth and reality in churches
I think that's dangerous I'd like to put something in there on that uh
if people can do that then there are no controls
on who can do it or or what they can say because then scripture can say pretty
much anything you want
or at least you can you can apply it in
any way you like
and it can be quite radically different
from any natural reading of the text or even responsible medics or
principles with biblical interpretation
now let me give you another example of a different kind where you have a teacher within the movement who's
this here is exactly what this passage teaches
he's not saying um a prophetic word that is somehow rooted in this passage
he's saying this is what it means and it
cannot possibly mean anything else and again I'll probably
have to mention names but uh the passage is John 14
12 where Jesus famously says
the works that I do you also will do
and greater works than these and uh
so uh for example uh
you'll hear people within the movement
say well this is miracles and it has to be miracles and there's nothing else it
could possibly be
Bill Johnson at Bethel church has said
this from the pulpit for example
and the passion translation of the bible
translates this verse
this way they call it a translation
but that's a misnomer because the passage itself
does not use the greek word for miracles
it uses a word that is translated best
into the english as works and so then
the question is well what sorts of works
could this be and it's a real question it's an open
question it's something to be investigated
and you can't just make an assumption and then
declare as if you know better than everybody else who's ever disputed this passage uh what it
actually means and on this particular
uh in in this particular case I think it
does not mean miracles and there are several reasons
for that
but I like to say that if Jesus is
talking to the apostles
and saying you will do greater words
then you look for the facts in the book of acts
you go to the book of acts to see well
what exactly did they accomplish
in the name of Christ that might have been different and greater
than anything that Jesus did and of course nothing that they did
ever outstripped the greatest miracles
uh that he performed and that would be impossible really because he raised people from the dead and in effect
raped and fell from the dead so for these reasons I would say  exegetically by means of responsible interpretation
it couldn't possibly mean that but even if that's what you thought it meant
you shouldn't be saying this is the only way you could possibly interpret this
and anybody who thinks otherwise is just wrong and then go on and never
interact with the reasons people might have for thinking
it would mean something different so there's an example where a person thinks that he can speak with such authority
and based on personal experience um just to say
exactly what the passage itself
means well let me even push back on on that a little bit because every time that we get into pulpit we're
going to say this is what this passage
means if we believe that's what it means
so uh I think a more egregious one like
an exact example I remember
uh hagee um I want to say John hague
specifically when talking about Jesus could do few miracles there because of their lack of belief
like an angel appeared to him and explained to him this is what this text means, right? So he he had now what would be
an authoritative understanding of one
given biblical text which which I would say like you can't
do that when there's a debate over a text and you're like no no no
I know what it means because an angel
told me and it's like well that's a trump card that you can whip out
whenever you want that's like really convenient  uh so so to your point I would say that you can read a text like that and go hey
this is what I think it means and not be NAR, right? Like you'd say hey other people
anyone who you know who reads this text
and views it that way I disagree with them
but just having a firm position on a given theological text wouldn't make you
NAR I don't think would it no but that's not how I described the situation
the way I described it the way it happened was to say that it couldn't possibly mean anything else and there was no acknowledgement that uh you know I may be mistaken here
but based on my own study.
This is what I think it does mean and others disagree that is a responsible uh I agree that's responsible
yeah so I agree with Mike Bickle would say that the greater
works actually are or include uh believers in the last days
calling down the judgments of God
through their declarations uh that are
described in the book of revelation
calling them down and destroying cities
and and just wiping out entire cities
and populations um
and so Mike bickel will say that is
how could you read John 14 12 and possibly come to the greater works that Jesus promised
his disciples would do are the calling
down the plagues in the book of revelation through their spoken words so there's
another example of how's that's done okay so
there is that if you think that's what the plastic means
but you acknowledge that the works that
they did were not greater you know miracles of the type that Jesus did then you have to ask the question well what are the works that the church or individuals can do that are greater than Jesus
and now you have to speculate and now
you have to sort of imagine what those things might be and then look at the history of the church
and ask well did any of those things occur and now what you have are present day
apostles and prophets
speculating my word about what the future holds
uh that Jesus might have been alluding
to and so that's what Mike Bickle is
doing uh when he says what what Holly
recounted sure okay all right so it sounds like
Doug if I was to summarize your
primary danger it sounds like it's just
playing fast and loose with the scripture
it might be having a strange
interpretation that no one's had
historically and saying God revealed to you that's
the way or maybe an angel revealed it to you or whatever
but basically not having an exegetical
bearing so that people coming out of it
don't know how to read the bible
so I'm summarizing yours Doug I want to move to you Holly
what would you say is the primary danger
a real concern I have is the the teachings make people dependent
on the apostles and prophets for for a lot of things they're dependent on them
for understanding scripture
they're dependent on them for being sure
they're inside of God's will that they're fulfilling their destiny uh
to receive healing  to learn to work miracles um
to cast out any demon or you know uh
deal with any demons that might be
afflicting them all of these things people are dependent
on the apostles and the prophets
to give them the revelation that they
need for all of these things so over
dependence or dependency on the apostles and prophets.
I talk about the five d's we talk about that in our book
the division so many churches that have split over these teachings
families we get contacted regularly by
by families who are just devastated because their kids
got caught up in this movement and won't
talk to them anymore and we could go into that um another d is
distraction and people are being distracted um from real true biblical teachings and practices and because of that they're
experiencing diminished spiritual growth  disillusionment when the uh
promises by the apostles and prophets
don't pan out when when they don't learn
to work miracles in the way they promise that they can or when a healing doesn't occur and then also demonization I would say that there are there is a danger
with some of the practices in this
movement that have more in common with
occult and new age practices of people actually coming under demonic
influence so there are quite a few dangers yeah um
we did an episode recently um I say
recently the last year on the courts of heaven and I feel like
this is I think when you're talking about worried about how the bible is handled
I mean I I cannot I mean look no further
right than courts of heaven
and when we when we read through this
text and we've done two videos on it that encourage
our viewers to go back and watch if you
haven't seen it already um
but but robert henderson literally says
in this book you won't so much be judged by what is
written in scripture you're going to be judged by what's
written about you in the books that are in heaven
he talks about how you you've got to spiritually go to heaven you have to find the book that's
written about you that was written by
angels and God and eternity past
this is God's perfect will for your life
you've got to begin to to live out that will and decree that against these demonic
forces that are in heaven make sure that
they know that you know
what's written about you in your book
and um and there's different voices that
are in heaven that you have to come into
alignment with and if you don't do it
right you'll actually be in spiritual
danger so when you're talking about dependency I mean there are entire
practices that have been aberrant that
have been missing from the church from 2000 years
and that fundamentally changed
some of the core tenets of our faith
like prayer like hey going to our father who's in
heaven and asking our father who loves for a good gift isn't going to give us a scorpion or a serpent according to this book
it's very very connected with a New Apostolic Reformation
yeah if you go and pray for things
without the right order in certain
things you're actually gonna get hurt
and your family can be under a demonic
attack can you can you tell us some of the spiritual practices that have been
found um and I'll use the idea of in scripture
but these new practices that have been
discovered I know in your book you talk
about spiritual mapping
what are some other things that you have found in the the New Apostolic
reformation to say hey
apostles and prophets claim to have this
authority and when they actually
bear this out these are the kinds of practices that start coming out of that because that's really where the rubber
hits the road well one practice
you just kind of mentioned is related to strategic level spiritual warfare the idea that there are these
high-ranking demonic principalities that
rule over geographic regions nation
cities which there actually is some
biblical support for but the idea is
that that the gospel cannot go forth with
effectiveness in a region until those high-ranking uh
demonic spirits are neutralized or cast out and so it's called strategic level
spiritual warfare because it's seen as more strategic than old-fashioned spiritual warfare like
just casting out a demon from an individual or prayer or something like that it's
strategic because they cast out the demon ruling over an entire nation
and then and then they can and then the gospel only then can the gospel go forth with effectiveness in a region and can the missioNARies
have any success on the ground the ground troops and so related to that is spiritual mapping trying to is a practice that's you try to map out a particular city and kind of find out what are the sins that are predominant in that city it
could be, you know, it could be that they have a lot of um strip clubs or something in that city or it could be that they have casinos and there's a lot of greed in the city and and so they they map out an area and tried to figure out what demon is exerting its influence in
this city try to identify the demon often by name
and then they'll engage in a prayer walking a specific type of prayer walking
where groups of people will gather
together and walk in that region and specifically go against that uh demonic principality and pray against it and command it to leave um
and and so so that's one example and this isn't aberrant this is like
taught from the pulpit this is written
in books this isn't like
a couple of people who go to this church that we are not thrilled with has lots of error they're going out and doing
this occasionally they're actively doing
these kinds of things right and don't you have to have an apostolic status in order to go after a principality isn't there something tied to the the apostle has to have the revelation of what principality is to have the revelation and the apostle has to go in and I think they
can both get the revelation right I don't know you guys know better
than we do so they can both get the revelation but the prophet gets it more
consistently and we were both right I was the one who is to implement it
I got it okay thanks for coaching us only apostles only apostles are seen to have the authority to cast out these these high-ranking demonic principalities
Doug is there any any practices that are that are that are coming to your
recollection that you would say
this is what happens as Holly was speaking and uh we were talking about Michael's question what is the most serious error
I was thinking about what our two responses to that question have in common
and what they have in common is concern
about the nature of authority and health authority plays a role within the New Apostolic Reformation uh here we
have what we believe is human authority presumed to be divine authority really I mean they purport to have a kind of divine authority that we believe
they simply don't have and then if they did they'd be able to establish the plausibility of that claim from scripture which does have authority with an authority that can be tested by anyone who will come and humbly
submit to the teachings of of the word and uh
and and so that's a that's a basic problem when Holly listed off
those various practical ways in which dependence on an apostle
can create uh clean in the lives of people
that's a question of authority as well so it's authority with respect to revelation and biblical teaching and its authority
with respect to guidance over the lives of people in
in the church yeah now so when we talk about authority
take first timothy chapter five it talks about how the elders are to direct the affairs of the church and now I know there's various manners in which churches today
practice church governance and you talk about this in your book like hey
there's room for disagreement whether congregational run or whether this or that and you talk through different
forms but um but you say that NAR takes it to another level whenever it says that the apostles and prophets are to have authority over the elders authority over everybody
who has authority over the apostles and prophets
well there you have it well in their teaching God only
only God does directly in their teaching  although like you know Elijah Stevens
uh recently said on your show that um in the case of Bethel church
that there's their apostle is submitted to a board of elders and we can talk about that we have some things to say about that but in the teaching like as c peter
wagner would teach it and and others in the NAR would teach it
uh the apostle submits no to no one but God alone they can choose to voluntarily submit
to other apostles but but they're at the top
and and this goes along with their line
their teachings about spiritual covering
and alignment which are really important in this movement
they teach that everybody is supposed to be under the proper spiritual covering and that means being under the authority of the faithful ministry but especially under the authority of the apostles and prophets
and if you're not under that spiritual covering then you don't have the protection and the blessings that
trickle downward from being under the authority of the apostles and prophets so you need to be properly aligned
with them and if you're not you're really outside of God's will and um and so
so it will often be said in defense of people in this movement well
they're not saying you have to submit to these apostles and prophets
and they often don't say that so directly but there's a lot of teaching about the need
to come on in under in alignment with the apostles and prophets and be under their spiritual
covering or else I'll she'll miss out on the um the benefits and the blessings and and even expose yourself to spiritual danger
being outside of that covering and I have a number of quotes here by
prominent in inaudible covering on in alignment
the Bethel leaders network at Bethel
church and reading to be a part of their app assault network their the Bethel leaders network informational packet describes what I'm talking about that one of the benefits of being part of the network is that you're under
their spiritual covering of Bill Johnson
and prophet Chris Bellaton and and all that goes along with that so it's a very
common teaching in this movement
so I'll have you give some of those
quotes um but with this is kind of the backdrop of just to say okay
what about a classical Pentecostal um or
a traditional charismatic to use Doug's words
for a person who goes hey
according to Ephesians 4 - these gifts are for
our edification and benefit according to 1st Corinthians 12-14 and Ephesians chapter 4
we see that these gifts are given to the church for their edification for their building up for their exit
their encouragement Ephesians 4 goes on to talk about till we
reach the fullness of faith and knowledge of the lord Jesus it seems as if these gifts need to operate so what if someone was to say
hey I really believe that these graces
need to be present in our church so that we can mature the way that God
wants us to mature in love the God we mature we plant churches that we're
growing up the way that God has called us to grow
up in the body of Christ with one of those classical
pentecostals charismatic who say we need
the apostolic because it looks as if
they have something that edifies us that builds us up if we
don't have them can we really be built
up the way that scripture would have us be built
up it didn't say you know uh prophet, evangelist, pastor, teacher it says
apostle prophet evangelist, pastor, teacher for the quipping of the saints right so
if I don't have one of those does that mean that I will be not fully equipped
so is there a difference between what I just said there and what a person says that you have to come underneath
apostolic covering to have apostolic blessing
in certain areas of your life are those
two things different
yeah I would say it's different um I
they would there's like a spiritual protection and and maybe if I read the quotes it will
come out but there's a real spiritual
protection and so I'll just start here
this is so chaon wrote a book called
modern day apostles the four word is
written by Bill Johnson
throughout this book chan is very clear he's describing the New Apostolic Reformation
and I really recommend everyone read
this book if they have any questions
about what we're saying if we're actually
accurately describing this movement
they need to read this book modern day apostles by chaon
he's one of the leading apostles in this
movement Bill Johnson wrote the forward
as I said and it really really will show what we're saying here but um so in the foreword chaon said I
encourage you to get as close as you can to the apostle with whom you are aligned
what do I mean by being close it means
carrying the heart of the apostle
following him as he follows Jesus
it means submitting to his authority the closer you are with your apostle the more you will receive the blessing of the corresponding grace and favor that comes with
the alignment now Chris Bellaton the chief prophet at Bethel reading said
if we don't understand how to recognize
and align ourselves under true spiritual authority
we may build bigger armies involve better strategies and buy more powerful
weapons but we will still lose it just never occurs to us that if
we support honor our leaders we will inherit their victories
yet this is how leadership is designed
to work in an apostleship the honor between leaders and those who follow
them creates a relationship in which the leader's lane
becomes the follower's floor um and in another sermon Chris Bellaton said uh there may be
grace available for me that I actually don't receive because I don't understand this but and he was talking about what God says about apostles and prophets and then as I mentioned in the Bethel leaders
network informational packet they actually say experience the blessing of alignment and spiritual
covering with Bethel's apostolic five-fold ministry leaders
such as Bill Johnson, Chris Felton and other fathers and mothers of the Bethel and blm family experience
the inheritance of fathers and mothers
who have forged a relationship with God
and whose blessing transcends
time and space um and you'll experience a blessing sounds like
a great blessing to have my my blessings are all within time and space I want to know what that's like I
want I want a non-temporal blessing
I'm sorry I don't know I don't know like
I'm picking fun but like
I don't know what that means right like
what does it mean to have a blessing that extends through time and space
like does that mean I cannot go ahead
oh no I'm sorry I'm sorry I interrupted
the idea though is pastors who are out there
and they want to get in on Bill Johnson
and Chris Belton's blessings can do so by joining this network is what the promise is
yeah and and and that's that's just one of those things I think that you're talking about having that spiritual covering right like spiritual protection
I want to say there was a couple quotes
in your book where you cannot achieve
the mission of God without apostles  yeah and I I would say that we um
yeah that I I totally understand in in
comprehending grass how you could say  a single Christian believer without
this kind of authority over them
can't um accomplish the mission and purpose of God for their life or
or um if I have faith in the lord Jesus
Christ to protect me and to fulfill his mission and commission
that's good placed faith but I
have to look to a man to facilitate covering and power and authority  then I'm actually placing my faith um
in the wrong place I'm putting my faith in some kind of ecclesiological system and not in Christ um and we would say as protestants may it never be right
yeah I just gotta have some wheels
okay go ahead no no I'm sorry I was just
going to mention they would also say that when you're when you're in submission to apostles and prophets you also get the blessing of um of being able to see angels carry out
your decrees and this is a big teaching from Chris it was a completely unnecessary I was going to ask if the decree transcended time and space but I shouldn't well that's okay but so from the book heavy rain chris
valeton said he's talking about the the letters to the seven churches in revelation and he
says what we learn from these letters is astonishing we see that true
apostolic ministries have angels
assigned to them
these angels are commissioned to carry
out the mission dictated by a particular
apostles mandate and metron
the word metron means the realms or
boundaries of a leader's
spiritual influence in this case John
had authority over seven specific geographic regions so he had seven angels assigned to him
it is my personal conviction that one of the essential elements that has ushered
in this apostolic age is that angels no longer recognize the performance-based authority of denominationalism
Paul teaches us that angels recognize true spiritual authority in fact it is
the angels who answer our prayers and fulfill our prophecies
where have all the angels gone in the 21st century church what would the world
be like if we were suddenly to employ angelic help on this planet in the same degree as they did in the first century
I think that as we are reformed into
this New Apostolic wine skin that means
as as we embrace the apostles
government we are about to find out and there's a lot of teaching about when
you're under the apostles you actually they actually uh can issue
decrees and things that the angels carry out and you'll become part of that
wow
I like angels so okay - what we need we need to ask about Bethel because that was wrong
we were gonna we're gonna ask for sure so you watched the Bethel interview
what were your thoughts um and I've got questions why don't you refresh our
not all of our viewers have seen it Elijah stevens came on the show
he teaches um at apologetics at their Bethel school of supernatural ministry  we submitted to him some of the uh the quotes from the book um said hey
there's a couple of things that require
to be NAR here are some of the areas
here's some of the the ticks um the office of apostle the office of a prophet
governed exclusive authority over a local church
that local church has a single senior elder
such as a senior pastor who has direct authority over his board or elders
he is the authority he is the first among the equals
not that they're they're plural but like a pope in a sense
and the only person above him is the apostle um he goes well that's not
us um and I'm curious you know as we as we submitted some of those quotes to him
and he said no we don't do this we don't do that what were some of your thoughts on on that interview
and by the way to our viewers go back
and watch that watch that interview
with Elijah Stevens over the New Apostolic Reformation in Bethel
So Doug what'd you think of our Bethel episode?
Well, I did get a chance to watch part of it I didn't see the whole episode myself. I think I saw about half of the episode
and my impression was that Elijah wasn't very specific about the ways in which -
what - we attribute to to NAR people.
Are different than what he sees going on
at Bethel church and ready I don't think that he was very specific about that which means that there was room
for there to be a match between what we said and what really
goes on there so I thought what he said was weak and I think that uh some of the quotations that Holly has called
uh from people prominent in the movement that she's got with her right now will establish that as a matter of fact
uh they do they do say some of the things that Elijah wanted to say uh
really are not featured by by the church
within the church
so that was disappointing to me that
he would take that approach I thought that in a way he spoke in very
uh vague terms and very general terms which left
uh me wondering at least what the real
difference is supposed to be between what we say in our books and what he says goes on
there where he is at Bethel
Holly same question yeah
I mean I think people could have been left
thinking that based on what Elijah said that Bethel
doesn't teach that their apostles and prophets have extraordiNARy authority that they don't claim to be giving you
truth and that they don't teach that that churches should be under an apostles authority and I think all those things can be demonstrated I have here in my notes and can be demonstrated that they actually do indeed teach all of those things and now they won't always say
they'll say oh yeah you can have a church that's not under an apostles authority
but it's not within the movement you're
there's like a class Christians and b-class Christians and you're definitely
one of the b-class Christians if you're not under the authority of an apostle and again that that can be demonstrated  I think we can demonstrate but um
I do one of Elisha's
I think points main points he tried to make is that Bill Johnson can't have absolute authority because uh he said that Bethel church um
according to their bylaws has a board of elders
and they can actually fire Bill Johnson
and I don't think that diminishes anything
at all that we're saying that that wasn't the criteria we we said
uh that has been put before to explain
you know what it is to be NAR
but it doesn't all non-profit
organizations are required to have by
uh bylaws and they're required to have boards and those boards can fire their senior
leaders uh chaon is overtly NAR by in his own words
he's NAR and he his organization his apostolic network harvest international
ministry is a non-profit organization and so it
has a board as well and so having a board does not exempt
in any way Bethel from being NAR and in fact I wanted to read a quote from Bill
Johnson he said this during the 2019 open heavens
conference at Bethel
they were talking about well what happens if there's differences of opinion say between Chris Allison and Bill Johnson or the other leaders of Bethel church and Bill Johnson what happens
and um what Bill Johnson said in response to that
was I have the ability to lay down the final word so to speak
if God speaks to me absolutely and I
know what we're supposed to do.
I will listen to all input but then I'll
explain if the counsel is contrary I'll say
God said and he said he does that rarely
but that he does withhold have that authority as an apostle at Bethel church
and and another really interesting thing
about the bylaws of Bethel church and these bylaws are available  publicly you can request those from Bethel church
but they have an interesting feature in their bylaws which actually it's true that there is a board that can fire Bill Johnson
but there's also a committee called the apostolic intervention committee.
And this committee is a committee of five apostles that are pre-chosen from other large organizations or other organizations
in case the board does choose to fire a Bill
then Bill can call these five apostles in and they actually have the authority according to the bylaws to reverse the board's decision
so that is an interesting feature of the bylaws I think that actually kind of undermines the the claim that while because there's a board that you know doesn't mean Bill has has all
this authority (wash your face), it's not good because like realistically whoever's gonna be on that apostolic board people that like
Bill and know nothing about what's going on
in the church right so again this isn't
a this isn't a Bill Johnson you know Bethel church you
know destructo fest where we're going to attack these guys which y'all aren't doing
but people who are watching um the Pentecostal charismatic movement has been preconditioned
to say any kind of criticism any kind of critique is an attack it is hate right we're
we're from a position of right now
saying we love these people um we want to see protection from these people  I have no expectation that Bill is
going to tomorrow
start saying that Jesus is the brother of satan I've got no expectation that he's going to commit
like such a level of heresy to lead many into damnable heresy
but um he is a man and worse things have happened
you know um I think of yeah I was gonna
say I think that's
that's my biggest concern about all of it regardless of who we're talking about the idea that one person has authority
over church elders and lots of different
churches and that one person just what they say
goes that's uh that's frightening to me
and uh and I I I think that's unbiblical
yeah I would I would like to maybe maybe
try to resolve this with a couple because we didn't even really get to say like hey how do I know if I'm going
to in our church but like a couple of things I think are important to talk
about I think of Bethel or ihop
ihop said hey we're not NAR they have a thing on their website saying
we're not NAR um this is you know we're
not this is not who we are you said that
they modernized their language
and yet some people are saying no you're
still NAR so
so my question would be there are people
out there who don't know that NARa was a thing that didn't even know it existed people are telling them that they're NAR
they're making public statements saying
they're not NAR and yet we're still saying
no you're NAR so how I use this in the facebook post
is there a possibility to be NARish or NARly you know just a little little
bit of NAR not a ton of NAR  uh so so when we're talking about these organizations what's the what would they need to do to prove that
they are not NAR, right? What
not that they have to prove anything to us not that that you
have they have to submit something to to Doug and Holly to get put on the non
and they are not the non NAR
certification two of you have the apostolic authority to decree people as NAR
or not NAR but like what what uh what needs to happen what do they need to show what do they need to do
to then show the people that they're
leading uh and to protect the people
they're leading from this kind of error
Doug what do you think well we've talked
about this quite a bit Holly and I have and uh there's a difference between a church that seems to check all the boxes all
the main boxes and a church that
will maybe um reflect some of the influence of NAR and I think what we're
talking about here is a situation where it's
pretty conclusive that a church has uh the view of the authority of an apostle and of a prophet and we would say that one
way to be sure that in church either was not NAR
or had forsaken it NAR  involvement right uh affiliation
whether it's
or not one way to do that or the primary
way to do that a necessary
way to do that would be or fake their view of the authority of apostles and prophets that we've talked about so far if they were  to do that and do it decisively
in ways that were demonstrable and reflected in their in their teachings
their doctrines make retractions to that effect then I think that would be uh conclusive that would be convincing to me
what I do I expect that to happen I have to say I don't expect it
but that would do the trick and I wanted to add to that's one reason why I would say international house of prayer in kansas city ihop kc
that's Mike Bickle's organization is not off the hook
uh with being NAR they do have a statement on their website that directly says
we are not part of the New Apostolic Reformation but you can't just go by
what an organization
says you have to go by what they do and related to Doug's point um Mike Bickel
over many years has taught that the govern, governing office of apostle and prophet is is for today um especially in preparation for Christ's return and this is something he's affirmed to us
and in conversation with him that that he believes that those offices
continue it's in his writings in his book
growing in the prophetic he talks about this
and so it's it's their belief in the present day
governing offices of apostle and prophet that make them
for any of the leaders in your
organization which is what they state
on their website huh well
we are go ahead comment made I I don't
mean to talk over you Josh
okay no no you're fine oh I was seeing
here that for example in one of the comments that dr Michael Brown is a is uh clear about this but he denies that there is such a thing as the New Apostolic Reformation
and we've had a public debate with him
on on one of in a blog, blogcast about this very thing
and I think that we demonstrated here today
and certainly in our books that there is
a movement of this sort
and that there are leaders that fit this description
and that's all we're saying is that if
people do fit this description then that's what we
mean when we talk about the New Apostolic Reformation
so this is a label that we're using
that's convenient because we need some
way of being able to talk about people
who are making these same kinds of claims and so
when a group like when someone like Mike Bickle or ihop in kansas city
denies that they're NAR
like Holly said that's kind of irrelevant because what matters is what do they believe what do they teach and how do they
function
and so we try to describe that so that
people know what to look for
so when they're in a church and they're
wondering is my church a NAR church is
it NARly then um
then how do I know how would I look how
would I tell whether that's the case
and we've tried to outline ways that you
would be able to tell
or suspect now we think that that you
could follow up there are things you
could ask leadership at a church and then
ask follow-up questions depending on
what they say that would help you
discern and discernment's really critical here
some people think that discernment is a special gift that must be understood apart from scripture that a person has discernment
if they can see something beyond what scripture teaches
and my view is that the biblical concept of discernment including any kind of gift is that a person has a special capacity
to understand how scripture can apply to a particular situation
so that even someone like myself or
Holly, could have the spiritual gift of discernment and yet disagree with people
in the New Apostolic Reformation
and our disagreement might grow up out of this kind of discernment because of the effort that we've made
to apply scripture to this kind of situation
right one question I have is if NAR is this prevalent of a movement
why are people able to deny it I mean when you think about the ancient
uh you know call them heresies I'm not
calling NARa heresy but whether it be pelagianism or aryanism I
mean people knew who the enemy was right
and uh and when it comes to this so many
people that you guys are saying are in the NAR
they're saying I'm not in NAR
prominent figures such as Michael Brown
are saying no such thing as NAR exists you guys are saying this is
a massive movement so why is it so
easy to deny that NAR exists
if it exists and doesn't just exist but it's thriving to the tune of millions of people well I think and I
would like to to chime in too if you'd like to but I
think one thing is well first of all if not if NAR is
defined as you believe that there are
present day governing offices of apostle
and prophet that must govern the church
then church growth researchers uh uh
sociologists um all kinds of people have have identified this movement
and and so the question for people is do
you believe that do you believe there
are present day governing offices of apostle and prophet that that must govern the church if you do
you're not whether you know that or not
but many um many people have actually
grown up in our churches and we're
contacted by people I was contacted by a lady the other day who was just
heartbroken because she just realized that her entire life she's been raised
in these teachings and she she just realized had her eyes open
to the error of the teachings
but people have been raised in it so if
you're if it's like if you're swimming
in water and all like you're a fish maybe you
don't know there's water you know
it's just your world you don't know you
don't know that it's NAR you just know it is Christianity
and so that's that's one thing I would point out I I don't know if Doug would like to add something
well think about it this way support that you just believed certain things and you
talked about your beliefs and they were different than what other people believed
but then you found that a lot of other
people believe the same things and you
could sort of list them off
but people who believe those things
don't really go by any particular name there's no label for them
but then somebody comes along and says
well if you have these things in common
why don't we talk about this in a way that's helpful to people who believe them but also people outside the movement
what's an appropriate label for doing that well
New Apostolic Reformation is a good label
just as see Peter Wagner believed it was because it's descriptive of the things that we've been talking about you have apostles and prophets that
have newly been given back to the church
so they are new apostles and prophets
it's a novel movement it's discontinuous
with the history of the church it's not
apostolic succession and it's for a specific purpose and that is
reformation of a certain sort of a certain type here at the end
uh in the end a in in times
so the name that we've given to it is not a name that we've given to it but whoever did come up with the name
came up with a name that is descriptive
it's very helpful it's convenient
and so when somebody says but I don't
want to call myself that you could say?
Well fine, what matters is whether you believe the same things that people who are called that and so
do you have a different name that you'd
like to go by would be a good question
and if they want to say well we'd like a more general label
like um evangelical or something like that we could say okay
fine but evangelicals differ and you differ in these ways so how do
we talk about those differences that you have in common
and there are baptists and then there are divisions of Baptist and methodists and so forth.
And the names of these things are given for reasons so that you can talk about the specific things that they actually believe
and if a group wants to deny that a movement like see does
does Michael Brown deny that there is an organization
called the NAR well that's fine we do too
sure uh does it mean that there's no movement
where people believe these things well
if that's what he thinks then he's mistaken
so when he denies that there is such a thing as the NAR
what exactly does that amount to is it
something different than what we're
talking about so what I'm saying is that
it doesn't really matter what you call
it you could make up a whole different
name for it
it's just that this particular label is very descriptive of the things that they actually believe
and teach and that's why it's called the New Apostolic Reformation
but a lot of people get hung up about that and say well there are people who
who don't want to be called that and they don't think that way in those terms
okay but do they believe these things
and that's why if you're in a church
and you begin to wonder whether your church is
NAR you don't want to go and ask them:
Well are we part of the New Apostolic Reformation?
You want to say what do we believe about these things
what do we believe about x, y and z.
And it doesn't matter what you call it.
It's an illustration I suppose when I was probably six or seven I'm in line at church camp we're at church camp I'm in line to go get
like cafe style food, right? And I'm in line and then one of the kids one of my buddies who's with me
leans in and is talking to me I might
have been six or seven I'm really bad
with ages but I'm gonna give a generalized age
and he leans in and goes hey man are you
a virgin and I go
no I don't think so like I don't think
I'm a virgin like no clue what it was right I was like no I'm not a virgin at
seven I was absolutely a virgin I just had no idea what that category meant right?
So I didn't identify that way I had no knowledge of what that category was but I in fact was that thing - give it a little bit more of a modern and maybe more palatable understanding for some people. If I use the word dispensational,
right? I'm going into an evangelical church and most evangelical churches in the west are dispensational and that might be broad brushing but many of them are I walked in and I asked a congregant: "Hey, are you dispensational?"
and they go: "Well, no, I don't think so," the same kind of reaction I had not knowing what the category means. They don't identify as that but it doesn't mean that they don't have the same qualifiers well dispensational.
Do you believe there's a future plan for israel?
yeah I do. Do you believe that israel's God's chosen people absolutely?
Do you believe this about eschatology and the tribulation? Yeah. I do.
Well you're dispensational. oh, I had no clue right, so so what happens is we're saying there's a category we're going to name it something and here are the beliefs and practices of those individuals
and whether you have knowledge of it or
not it's a it's a helpful category of thought
so you might not be aware of it you
might not have signed up under an organization
and your pastor might not be aware of it
but if they believe certain kinds of criteria
the same the same criteria for a virgin
to be considered a virgin
even though you're unaware of it or a person that's dispensational not to know
they're dispensational that same
illustration applies because we just don't have the knowledge of the category it doesn't make the category
erroneous so what you're saying is there
are NARs and sheep clothing there's NARs in evangelical clothing
I don't know what I'm saying okay
uh hey we got a question from Rachel
ends here I thought this would be a good clarifying question she says  I don't understand what is so evil with believing that
those with apostolic gifting
should be leading churches apostolic
gifting doesn't equal Jesus disciples
okay so we would we would agree right
so not evil I mean speaking for me I
would say no we're not we're not saying
it's evil what we're saying is there's
room for error
and um if everything rises on fall on
one person's integrity  historically speaking it's going to fall because absolute cr authority corrupts.
Absolutely.
I'm curious Doug and Holly what how would you guys articulate an answer to someone who said hey
what's what's the big deal what's so
evil what's so dangerous about having
a guy who says he's apostolic leading a church if he's planted churches
he's influencing all these churches
what's what's the harm
well what we're coming against is the or
what we're critiquing is is apostles who are claiming to that
they must govern churches and there's
two corollaries to that they're claiming
to have extraordiNARy authority
and the purpose is so that they can bring new revelation or new truth that the church must have or else it can
fulfill its mission on earth and so so
we're not talking about people who just view themselves as apostles and and are have some leadership roles or
missioNARies or church planners or that
kind of thing these are people who are
claiming that they must rule churches so that
they can give
new doctrinal revelation and I'm talking about revelations
on the par of um you know like like Bill
Johnson's canosis teaching that Jesus
did all of his miracles
as a man dependent on the holy spirit
and did not exercise his divine power
he would he presents that as a truth that has been lost
through the centuries and and has been
restored through present-day apostles
and prophets and so we're talking about we're talking about serious doctrinal
revelation or Chris Belton would say
he's received revelation that apostles
and prophets must govern the church
and that uh denominationalism is needs
to go including like the assemblies of God
dynamic denominations are bad uh
apostles and prophets must govern the church and that's the only government
or infrastructure that can hold what God
wants to do on Earth and so that's a very different thing
than I think what rachel was asking yeah so I've seen I've
seen  like or I've seen I've actually
posted them in some of our other videos
on the canosa thing when Elijah came on
where he he goes back and says hey guys
I I do believe that Jesus was fully God
and I think I place his his language and vocabulary in the area of  ignorant of church history you know I
think he should have used
more clear language in articulating that
but when you say that Jesus did all these miracles you
know through his humanity empowered by the spirit
and this was lost as a new truth that's
being brought back do you have that quote
and if not that's acceptable.
We'll just put it in the description.
Yeah.
I think I might have that I need to go through my pages and pages of notes
here
sure 20 pages of notes for this interview and I have one titled
Bill Johnson's kenosis teaching
but I don't know if Doug wants to chime in while I'm looking
but you can always send it to me if you can't find it
on spot I don't want to put you on spot
and I just put it in the description and say hey
this is this is Holly's quote of of Bill  because I want to I want to give him
credit you know credit is due I want to fairly critique him
in areas um I I don't believe that he
believes a heretical version of kenosis  I do think he's done he's affirmed
the deity of Jesus
I think he's done a very poor job
articulating that he said in his book
uh when heaven invades earth I believe
he says Jesus laid aside his divinity
yeah I think that's unhelpful language
on clear language  we've talked about that quite
extensively but he did have a facebook post where he
followed up I showed a screenshot
on one of our shows where he says Elijah
yeah Jesus is fully God something like that
So.
Yeah.
Doug, weren't you going to follow up with
go ahead Doug say that some people fees upon some point when
Walt may read something into it that's not intended that could happen and then the other is that they may ignore the orientation that comes along later or a retraction
even so if will Johnson said something and then he kind of regrets putting in that term and said well here's what I really
believe and this is what I mean then you know we want to give them
credit for that we don't you know question them and we do thorough documentation I mean in our book
we have extensive documentation we quote
we give page numbers we do all of that
and I think this is one reason why uh
even though our book has been out for a few years now
we haven't had any really official
response to it we haven't come across
anybody that said okay they get it wrong
they're misunderstanding what I've seen
here we've tried to be really in our research
and it sounds like Holly is climbing a mountain of paper
I'm just
okay
he says well he is 100 God he chose to live with the same limitations that man would face once he was redeemed he made that point over and over again  it goes on Jesus became the model for
all who would embrace the invitation to invade the apostle in his name
he performed miracles wonders and signs
as a man in right relationship to God
not as God if he performed miracles because he was God
then they would be unattainable for us
but if he did them as man I'm responsible to pursue his lifestyle
recapturing the simple truth changes everything and makes possible a full restoration of the ministry of Jesus in his church
so it's together with recapturing the simple truth changing everything but also it makes possible
a full restoration of the ministry of Jesus and his church it's the idea that the ministry of Jesus in the church
has been missing all this time and needs
to be restored by recapturing this truth
I don't know I I I totally respect your
book and I I respect the stuff you've
said I think that that might be a stretch to call that quote and say that because I've heard that quote um for him
to say like this is a true restoration I
could I could tell a person that's roman catholic like hey
you really need to believe the gospel of grace through faith and this will be a true restoration
it's not to say it's never been here
ever as much as is to say that if you're not living by this it
needs to be restored
yeah I don't know so that's when from when heaven invades earth but it's in the context of his in the context of his teachings that the church needs to be raised up
as this miracle-working army in order to to bring God's kingdom to earth to set
up God's kingdom and bring it to Earth
I believe they teach this is a truth that needs to be recaptured or else
that's not possible to bring God's kingdom to Earth
through this miracle-working army that's so it's in the context of a lot of teachings about restoring these truths in order to allow the church to complete its mission
well you know and and I would I would just say that like
like I've got stacks and stacks of books
right now on a series that we're working on about the gifts of the spirit
here coming up
and quite a few of the theologians there
I want to say keener is one of them who is
as evangelical as they get um but he was uh I want to misquote him um because I'm
reading this book called strangers to fire and there's like 50 authors so I
don't it might not have been him
but a couple of them have given reasons
for why gifts might have tapered off
during the protestant reformation because if everyone's teaching
the gifts of the spirit like healings
don't happen prophecy doesn't happen
no one has faith for those kinds of things to happen those things generally
don't happen  so again I could I could still see
the case being made in particular
on the gifts in particular on the life of Jesus and saying hey um
if you have a wrong belief system about the gifts  you're not going to see those gifts
manifest  you know if if you're walking around
and I would say this to people who have an over-realized
divinity in Christ but like a non-chalcedonian you know definition  to say hey they've overrealized
divinity that every time he came into a situation
he just kind of like used his God card
and like you know
I dream of genie blinked and it
magically happened um that's not a proper understanding of Jesus being  baptized in the spirit I mean we see
we see uh
Jesus speaking in luke I want to say
it's luke chapter 11 the spirit of lord is upon me
has anointed me too and he mentions
recovering of sight to the blind
so if you're gonna say that he did that
through his divinity then why did the holy spirit need to empower him  and I think theologically you would have to say I mean james white I've got a clip uh in the video that we taught white on kenosis
James White and dr Brown were like I just thought that was just normal orthodoxy
to say that Jesus had divine authority but chose not to act on it
and rather uh humbled himself in the form of a servant being empowered by the spirit performed miracles and signs and wonders  so so I don't I don't think it's
unorthodox necessarily and I don't even think it's unorthodox for pendle cost or
charismatic to say  you know now we're getting into the weeds now this is nothing to do with NAR
but
I don't I'm not as confident with that
quote as some of the other ones you
shared that's all
I don't think that's a charitable way of saying that I don't know yeah
okay but what we can all
if you get into I would say if you get into reading the books and really really get into
reading Bill Johnson's books  I can see maybe as a standalone quote that wouldn't convince you
sure but if you if you really read his books like
all of his books you know here you would see that a common teaching of his is the need for restoration of truth and so
there's buzz words within this quote that I'm tapping into that go into his larger teachings with
that's fair making possible a full restoration
recapturing this truth it's in the context of all of his teachings about the need to restore these these lost truths and I
can give you some good, some real, I quotes I think that might convince you about restoring
truth
I speak that way though when I preach
okay I think we probably have one more question that there's this huge
aspect of NAR we haven't touched on
okay and to do this long of an episode
and not touchdown I think we got to touch on so
last question and wrap it up last
question then wrap it up and just the sort of the seven mountains diminishing theology
Could you explain to us,
Holly, you were talking for a little,
while so maybe we'll go with Doug to start us out
explain to us what is dominion theology
the seven mountains idea and what specifically is a NAR characteristic of it because there
are those who practice or who pursue something similar but it's in a different way than the NAR does so
I I know that you can explain that okay so Michael we should tag team on
this Holly and I should both speak to this issue um
but the mountains themselves the the mandate is to go
into the world and affect or Christianize engage the culture
from a Christian world view in all of the major sectors of society politically
and socially and personally so it could be the government it could be in the arts and entertainment it could be in education
uh it could be in all of these major
sectors and so they can identify
the seven sectors as uh
the seven mountains that you basically
have to climb and and take
uh captive is what you do now uh
certainly the idea of influencing the culture is is appropriate and that's the way we
should conduct ourselves that's right
but the question is what does it mean to do that
and how are we to go about it and you brought up
the in connection with this the dominion
theology and uh that's a kind of  um vague term because it can move
different things
historically dominionism like when I was a teenager uh people who were considered
dominionists and even called themselves
that adopted a kind of view of end times it
was called post-millennial which means that Jesus Christ would come
at the end of a millennial age a thousand year
age when the church had established
authority and control in the world
okay so what was post-millennial about it was it was post 1 000 years
what came after 1 000 years the return of Jesus Christ the second advent
but not everybody in the new apocalic
reformation would adopt that view
in particular uh they might believe that influencing the world the way they
envision  anticipates let's say even the rapture could be the rapture of the church but the point just is that now control
uh the there's a capture of these seven mountains
and using them as a means of influencing the world and bringing in  Korea
and and basically through these venues
establishing this great end times army
to accomplish God's purpose
this is why you you oftentimes see profits will endorse a particular candidate for political office
Donald Trump for example was considered the likely sympathizer with this effort on the part of the church as they understand it to lead in the political arena and many were making prophetic claims that donald trump would win the election
and then some of those people had to retract their their claims and apologize for making a prophetic claim that turned out
to be false and we can identify some of those cases
and then some of those retractions have been retracted because of the ongoing litigation and questions
about whether he did win or there was fraud or not
so you get prophecy connected up
with what's supposed to happen in these
different sectors of society
and there's supposed to be a control
over each domain
through apostles who lead the movement
within that domain
and you could have people like a presidential candidate
who uh is viewed as a one who will
especially selected by God to fulfill that role
now now maybe Holly could talk about the source of this view where why they hold this view
how they interpret scripture to come up with this idea
well it's seen within the movement as a new revelation these are this is one of the new truths or new strategies that God has given the apostles and prophets to bring God's kingdom to earth
the apostles are to rise to the top of the seven mountains or seven um influential
sectors of society
so that's government I I never remember
all seven never I always get like six so it's like government, media, family, church, business, education, government I said government I think
I always start on there maybe science or technology (toto není správně, je tam kultura a zábava, pozn. překladu) that might
be yeah yeah let's do it oh I think I
got it wow that might be the first time
ever  but the apostles are supposed to rise
to the top of those institutions so they
can cast out the high-ranking demons
this is related to strategic level
spiritual warfare we talked about earlier that are seen to be governing over those
institutions and then when they cast out those demons
then the church can take over those institutions and bring God's
kingdom to earth through those institutions
and so so that's a new revelation now
now they'll say that Bill bright and lauren cunningham
uh were the original source of of this
notion um but uh the truth is that this is seen as a new revelation that has been given through
uh also given through the apostles and prophets in this movement
okay so so what's unique then because there's there's seven mountain types of ideas
out there like uh cunningham and Bill
bright or whatever
but they're they were never talking
about you need an apostle to cast out a principality
over arts and entertainment or anything
like that is that the distinction
as far as I know they were not promoting that amped up
NAR version um
so as far as I know that was that that
they did not promote that that in our version okay well yeah go
ahead the one the one that was overlooked
might have been business and the corporate world uh
unless that got mentioned
and that's a big one because it affects
the transfer of wealth
and uh into the coffers of the church because uh
well I'm glad you mentioned transfer of wealth because that's one of the things that we're going to be talking about that's that's a common prophecy for
2020.
and I thought you were about to mention
patreon new year's eve
no new year's eve we are going he put up
the patreon graphic because he said the keyword
no crew take it down we'll do it
five later a month quick put the patreon
graphic up we're talking about trends  so so here's the thing guys uh uh uh
I was gonna say is new year's eve we're gonna be doing a review of prophecies given in 2020.
we're gonna line up a bunch of guys
we're going to listen to all of them uh
and we're going to have guys come on and discern with us so we've got craig
keener coming we've got steven bankers
you've got Mike Winger and I've got a couple of other guys I'm trying to get
confirmed to be in that lineup but we'll
be doing like a six hour eight hour marathon
listening to all the prophecies of 2020
alongside that doing some teachings and stuff but I want to thank Doug and Holly for
coming on you guys committed  and I appreciate you giving me some
extra time in this broadcast because um we really we have lots of lots of clarification and there's there's
questions that we sent you guys we
weren't even able to touch on
so I'm just super-thankful and honored  can you tell people how they can find
your book and your ministry one more time
before we sign everything off
so my my blog hollypivot.com uh that is it has tons of articles that
I've written over many years
and it has a good search feature on
there so if you're interested in
searching just a particular topic or
something we talked about tonight you
can put it in the search field
and there's a lot there our books are both available
on Amazon and the other places you can order books as well but they're up on Amazon
that's a New Apostolic Reformation
question mark and also
the other book is called God super-apostles and God super-apostles is a condensed
a shorter version of the book the larger
book and it has a lot of real  more practical um stories of people
who've been hurt
by being part of NAR but also it has real practical advice for people
who found themselves caught up in this
movement and want to know how to separate themselves
or what to do next or how to heal and recover as many people say they
they need to do after they leave this movement
and so um if anybody watching your show
has questions about you know what do I do next uh if I if I
realize I'm I'm part of this movement
and I'm kind of scared and I want to separate myself  God super-apostles has a lot of really practical advice in
in that book at the end of the book for
how people can do that
cool excellent Doug do you have any
places you would you'd have people
connect with you
well yes I you know Holly's uh
blog is where I stand people as well in
fact when I was  I was in south africa last year
and I was talking to a young woman who a student who was telling me that she uh just about her church
experience and she didn't even know that
I had worked on a book on
on NAR at all and I asked her questions about her church and she said
oh yeah it's just
definitely uh New Apostolic Reformation
stuff she used the language
and I said well tell me about your
experience and she said well I had to get out
I found that I was being held back spiritually by being a part of this church
and she said but I was really helped by
Holly Pivec she's my hero
and I said well let's get her on the phone right now
and it didn't work out but this is a worldwide movement it's a global
movement and I don't know of a better
place to go
than to uh Holly's website that she
just told us about and I know that
people worldwide are doing that
I did want to say that I've tried
hard to monitor the comments that have been coming in
through the chat and I haven't been able
to read all of them because they've been flowing
uh hot and thick here some of them have been very um encouraging some of them
are I think uh you know questioning a lot of what we're saying and we want to encourage that we want
people to do that we think that that
we've provided a manual
for reflecting on these things in our book
a New Apostolic Reformation and and maybe if you were to read this
it might change your mind about some things
it might not you might end up feeling
like you're more convinced than ever that what you now believe is
true and that's one of the reasons why
we have dialogue it's one of the reasons why we bring our disagreements out into the open
and so it's not intended to shoot down
people of good will or even fellow Christians
and sometimes what happens is when you
engage in criticism you get criticized by people who think you shouldn't criticize that's right
and so there's something um inconsistent
about doing that we're trying not to do
that and I'm grateful for your audience
especially those who recognize that this is a valuable um
kind of thing for us to do I think it's
typical of your  your whole program um
remnant rating yeah we advise people  that are in the Pentecostal
charismatic movement read strange fire
we advise people to read and I would advise that
I would I would advise that I said go
read it and I are different
go read strange fire by johnny mac and then go read strangers
to holy fire or strangers to fire um which is a more of a Pentecostal
critique and say okay
there's really a lot of truth in strain
and strange fire and that it's a strong
criticism of sexual immorality of poor handling of finances of what happens when your doctrine
can actually create new practices  horrible horrible abuses um I do
think that there are some
some quotes that might be taken out of context there are some some things that
are that are abused and the way that for
example maybe someone might cite Jonathan Edwards
and I think strangers to fire kind of pulls that in so you need to read both of those  but but um I think that we need to be
well read I think we need to be willing to criticize and to be willing to invite
criticism  in our in our video that we're going
to do on New Year's me and Michael are going to talk about prophetic words that we've given uh that
have bombed take responsibility for them we're not
going to say hey oh maybe that'll mean something to you later no we just took
responsibility up I missed it
sorry let's move on yeah but really I
mean this touches on what what room the radio really is about we
want to give you guys a chance to understand to think from lots of different streams
and perspectives we don't agree with all of our guests on everything and that's all right we're Christian brothers and sisters and uh and we just have important discussions
and I'd go as far to say if you like the show you should pick up Holly and Doug's book
like you should it's a good book I think
you should ... I don't ...
I really enjoyed the book I thought it
was highly clarifying on what the NAR is because I've just heard it talked
about for years and I just couldn't peg it
so I yeah it was really helpful for that
so you need to pick it up I'll put the link in the description of the video
Holly's website is already in the link of the description
uh if you guys like this video make sure
to uh give on patreon we would really
appreciate it as little as five bucks a month
this table is the product of patreon we
got a new table patreon table right here yes this is
hard wood it's got iron buddy the gate doctor put it together
Mike Fuller give him a shout out if you guys need a custom build table I don't know that he
does that for other people
he builds custom everything but yeah but he's awesome anyway uh uh
give on patreon it helps us uh continue
to produce this ministry Michael and I
just filmed uh an episode
uh right before we did this on uh
Michael's eschatology he came out of the closet eschatologically so now we know
what he is but only those who are on patreon and then we've got all kinds of content up there
as well with Stephen van cars uh some of the ways that God has been using him in the gifts of the spirit
cool stories there and other videos like
discerning discernment ministries those
kinds of things you can pick up
there on patreon otherwise keep
following the channel make sure to hit
the subscribe button
as we're coming out with content just
like this tomorrow we've got the Jewish
roots a kosher response to the Jewish roots
uh next week we've got David in stone
brewer and uh bishop Clark from he's an Anglican bishop is coming on talk about the history of mechanisms
you don't want to miss out on coming
down the pipe you'll be super-super-encouraged and uplifted by that uh but thank you again Doug and Holly for coming on.
We really believe in what you guys are doing let us know if you've got any
other books coming down the pipe we want
to help promote it in any way that we can thank you so much
thanks guys this was a lot of fun
yeah okay guys God bless you have a great week
okay thank you